Tuesday, June 21, 2011

Re: [HumJanenge] 3 POSITIVE points which Baba, Anna and IAC will never ask for

All forms of Corruption is the manifestation of selfishness, the most basic trait of the living beings including humans beings that is necessary for its survival and help it ever rejuvanating... and so is communalism too.  
 
But selfishness always and everywhere does not manifest as corruption.
In vibrant and virtuous societies selfishness of the individuals gets sublimated to benefit the society's progress and well being, (group's selfishness), 
The society can be an entity as small as a family to as big as a Nation ro even the whole of human kind or the living world itself. .. or at the very higher level the Universe too. 
 
So what take to be a vibrant and virtuous society? and what makes a society a sick and degradent one?
 
That is the quality of its leadership, especially the political leadership, the most powerful, powerful icon too for the society to emulate.
Yedha Raja thadha Praja...     
 
So the most important question, I think, is how can we produce the most virtuous and competent political leadership>
And to get a better answer and to prescribe a proper remedy , we have to understand the causes that has degraded quality of our political leadership to such low levels. Also we would have to compare our leadership recrutment process with that of comparitively vetter societis.  
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 5:14 PM
Subject: RE: [HumJanenge] 3 POSITIVE points which Baba, Anna and IAC will never ask for

Dear Sh Anand ,
You are absolutely right .When are all of us going realize this?
Col Dharma

Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:21:13 +0530
From: ypanandindia@yahoo.co.in
Subject: Re: [HumJanenge] 3 POSITIVE points which Baba, Anna and IAC will never ask for
To: humjanenge@googlegroups.com

Dear Shri Sarbjit Roy,
Thanks for your comments on my note to Shri Devasahayam. I do not know who should be called a 'Gandhian'. That is also not the issue here. Each one of us has many component identities, and putting labels hardly helps.
 
My note to Shri Devasahayam applies to everyone, including myself. With my long background experience, I do feel that the issue of 'Corruption' needs to studied much more thoroughly than it is being done by the activists at present. Corruption in its various forms is a wide-spread phenomenon in our society, particularly among the successful upper middle classes to which people like me belong. We need to be much more self-critical on this issue. Taking simple examples, black money is being generated all round through under-valued declarations of the amounts when we purchase/sell a property, when we make major additions/alterations to our houses/flats illegally, when we buy jewellery, vehicles, etc. without full receipts, when we under-state our incomes while filing incom-tax returns, and in numerous other similae cases.  
 
Corruption in all its forms must be opposed. Also, governments and the personnel involved must be held responsible wherever obvious failures to ensure integrity in public life come to notice. However, we get a right to speak on the subject only to the extent we have looked inwards also, and have assured ourselves of the facts in each case. Otherwise, it becomes a self-righteous outcry, which in the long run hardly ever helps the cause.
 
YP Anand

 

From: Sarbajit Roy <sroy.mb@gmail.com>
To: humjanenge@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, 15 June, 2011 10:38:50 PM
Subject: Re: [HumJanenge] 3 POSITIVE points which Baba, Anna and IAC will never ask for

Dear Mr Shashi

Please treat all our members with respect (and not demand to know their particulars so casually).

From what I know, Shri Y.P.Anand is a very senior and qualified technocrat who was Chairman of Railway Board., (My apologies if I am wrong on any point Sir)

Sarbajit

On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 10:13 PM, SHASHI KUMAR.A.R. <rudreshtechnology@gmail.com> wrote:
Who is this YP  Anand Whether working with INDIA AGAINST CORRUPTION from Karnataka

On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 11:22 PM, Sarbajit Roy <sroy.mb@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Mr Anand

I think you are already acquainted with Mr Devasahayam from Gandhi Satyagraha Brigade etc.

If I recall the Gandhi Satyagraha Brigade had also set out 3 small points to tackle corruption AT THE TOP.

I recall these to be (as I am quoting from memory here please correct me if I am wrong on any point)

A)  Formation of an effective LokPal to speedily investigate and prosecute Ministers and MPs on bonafide complaint made on oath or affidavit.

B)  Tainted candidates (those with pending charge sheets) not be allowed to contest elections without order from a High Court.

C) Forfeiture of ill-gotten property of corrupt public servants

This is all very well (in theory) but you can hardly expect serious persons (ie. non-Gandhians) to believe that this will sort out corruption in society.

You also spoke of arrogance and self-righteousness on the part of some "ignorant" persons in this field who advocate simplistic / quick fix solutions (I am summarising the gist of your message).
My take on this comment (as a non-Gandhian non-public servant) is that the arrogance / ignorance etc. is equally on the part of those who profess Gandhism/Gandhigiri, or those who think they know it all having been in Govt and this delusion grows greater with the greatness of the posts they occupied.

Warmly and in the spirit of a healthy debate
PS: We have some very knowledgeable members here whom you are unlikely to meet in Gandhian circles and who would convey their views on this national issue through me

Sarbajit
Moderator


On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 10:34 AM, Y.P. Anand <ypanandindia@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
Dear Shri Devasahayam,
I agree with you that corruption is a very widespread issue and trying to enforce some simplistic or quick-fix solutions in isolation, without a deeper study of the issue in its numerous aspects, can only be illusory. I feel that such a trend is also the result of self-righteous attitudes which are based more on ignorance mixed with arrogance than on a deep understanding of the subject.
 
With regards,
YP Anand  .

From: Devasahayam MG <mgd@airtelmail.in>
To: humjanenge@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, 13 June, 2011 9:05:28 PM

Subject: Re: [HumJanenge] 3 POSITIVE points which Baba, Anna and IAC will never ask for

Dear friends,

I have been one of the staunchest opponent of corruption in any form and have been closely following this corruption debate. But I am also a follower of the Holy Bible. There is a famous passage in the Bible that says "Why do you see the speck that is in other's eyes, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?" I hope the message is clear. To make it explicit I will reproduce the interview I gave to a Tamil Magazine recently on this theme:

Question 7: As an activist of anti-corruption movement, what is your suggested prescription to keep the corruption in check or any headway possible in the movement in the coming years? What should be the people's role?

Ans.    The ongoing commotion about corruption is like six blind men describing an elephant by feeling different parts of the animal's body. The blind man who feels a leg says the elephant is like a pillar; the one who feels the tail says it is like a rope; the one who feels the trunk says it is like a tree branch; the one who feels the ear says it is like a hand fan; the one who feels the belly says it is like a wall; and the one who feels the tusk says it is like a solid pipe.

          This is what is happening about corruption, the hydra-headed monster which is being understood and described differently by different people and in the process concerted and concentrated action to combat the evil is not taking place. For this we need first to understand the root causes of this all-pervading evil:

1. Corruption has more to do with our culture and social values. For instance the most prevalent social practice of dowry itself is a serious form of corruption –girl's parents heavily bribing boy's parents for her to be taken into their household. This and other forms of corruption like making cash & kind offerings to deities for favours and blindly following corrupt and decadent religious priests and preachers are socially and culturally rooted in our society. How then can governments and businesses escape from this evil?

2. Our electoral process that brings forth government leaders is riddled with corruption and voters are waiting to be bribed with cash and 'freebies'. It is but natural that corrupt elections will throw up only corrupt government. How then can corruption be eliminated?  

3. Constitution is the charter of India's governance that has established some of the finest institutions and instruments of democratic governance backed by appropriate laws and legislations. But nearly six decades down the line these institutions/instruments have degenerated and lost their capacity to govern with the laws and legislations remaining only on paper. There is no integrity left in these institutions. What then is the use of enacting more laws and creating more institutions?

        My prescription therefore would be to focus on elimination of societal and electoral corruption and restoration of institutional integrity. For this, people need not perform miracles. All they need to do is to reject corrupt customs and practices in society, refuse to accept 'freebies' and cash as bribe for voting and insist that the institutions and instruments of governance perform their tasks as per the laws of the land.


M.G.Devasahayam

_________________________________________________________________________________________

 



On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 8:40 PM, Sarbajit Roy <sroy.mb@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Satish Ji

If you ask me personally I agree with you 100%. However, some of our members (who consider themselves to be corruption fighters) have requested that discussions on LokPal / Anna / Baba etc will be of general interest to many of our members and have requested that  discussions be allowed in June also.

The Moderators monitor the activity on this group[ very carefully. We try and allow a sufficient degree of free speech on this group which is within the boundaries of decency and rules of debating. Hence this is one of the very few groups where very free and frank (and often with fresh perspective) speech can take place.

So I am requesting you also to please put up with this till end of this month. You concern has been carefully noted and we shall endeavour to see that you are not disturbed unduly.

At the same time our errant members should take notice that if LKPB discussion overshadows RTI here, the facility will be instantly terninated.

Sarbajit


On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 8:23 PM, Satish Kumar Kapoor <kapoorsatish@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear Mr Sarbajit,

When some body posts some topics not connected with RTI, u say that this forum is  meant for discussion of RTI matters, then why discuss Lokpal bill/Anna Hazare/Baba Ramdev etc.

S.K.Kapoor

Sent: Mon, June 13, 2011 6:04:17 PM

Subject: Re: [HumJanenge] 3 POSITIVE points which Baba, Anna and IAC will never ask for

I am not afraid of this Bill/Law.
I am against it because the way certain people are going about it subverts all democratic and constitutional norms / systems
I am not interested in the least to be on any Govt body/post. My writings on this are purely a tactical move.
Sarbajit

On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 5:16 PM, Mathre Rangarajan <rangajan@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear Sarabjit,
What are you affraid of? Even if the Jan Lokpal Bill is drafted, do you think Parliament will pass it? You are  so venomous against all, just because you were not made a member of this group? You have made amply clear in various postings that you are more than qualified and should have been included, but Government did not choose to and hance you have leashed this anti compaign. ha! ha!
From: Sarbajit Roy <sroy.mb@gmail.com>
To: humjanenge@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, 13 June 2011 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: [HumJanenge] 3 POSITIVE points which Baba, Anna and IAC will never ask for


Dear Hemant

Sometimes Individuals (acting as ninjas) can achieve more than crowds. Take an example in my own case (because you asked in a previous email)

I played a pivotal role in getting Mr Pramod Mahajan out of the Union Cabinet when he was Telecom Minister. Because of this the Govt was able to get about Rs. 3,000+ crores as revenue for licence violations (actually they didnt have a licence in the first place - only the blessings of Ataljis "family". I could only do this because there ARE honest babus - who need fearless, honest & skilled citizens to do what they cant do themselves.

Sarbajit

On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Mr. Hemant Kshirsagar <hemantkshirsagar01@gmail.com> wrote:
So that does not mean that we can ignore such good platforms for the same.

Do we as an individual have a power to collect such fan following???

The least we can do is follow such people who create a movementum for the same.

Regards,


On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Sarbajit Roy <sroy.mb@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Mr Rangarajan

FIRST: The fear of God will not be put into dishonest public servants by new laws or "old wine in new bottles"<he he>.

SECOND: The existing laws are essentially decentralised into various investigative agencies with some checks and balances. Now the fascist forces want centralised laws / big brother / police + judge to be combined at one point / grid.

THIRD:  All these people - Anna, Baba, Bhushan&Bhushan, Arvind, Hegde are essentially COLLABORATORS who have all regularly taken Govt money at some point in time for services rendered  Such QUISLINGS are doing all this drama knowing very well that "only the small fish will be caught while the big operators will carry on"- (and can Mr Prasanth Bhushan deny that he made this remark in a public place albeit privately?)

Sarbajit


On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 12:27 PM, Mathre Rangarajan <rangajan@yahoo.com> wrote:
M. Rangarajan,
(retired Group General Manager ONGC)
B 2 – 301, SRIRAM SPANDHANA,
Chellaghatta village,
Bangalore – 560037.
Phone: 25227955, mobile 9945091581
Dated 13th June 2011
The following two statements in the below postings is quite interesting:
 
First - "put the fear of God into dishonest public servants" - how do you do it? It is very obvious that exixting laws have failed to do this and everybody agrees without any exception. Do you expect our honourable M Ps who are leaders in curruption (may be baring very very few) will ever pass a law to end curruption? Not in my life time.
 
Second - "NEGATIVE laws which will turn India into a POLICE STATE controlled by fascist forces" - Why do you need any new law for this - the existing laws are enough - Smt Indira Gandhi declared ememgency - Delhi police brutally beat up innocent sleeping people - there are hundreds of examples of such brutal action by state in the past in India. 
 
 
From: Dr. NC JAIN <j_nc@hotmail.com>
To: humjanenge@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, 13 June 2011 11:20 AM
Subject: RE: [HumJanenge] 3 POSITIVE points which Baba, Anna and IAC will never ask for


Dear sir
  I donot agree with you. You might recall an incident in history when Pandits of India stated that Mohmad Gajnavi will not do anything to the Somnath temple because, they have saved the temple with their Mantras& Slokas. Everyone knows the result. Today, it is Kalyoug,where things have to be snatched and not given. You have to fight for your right , no one is going to donate it. In theses circumstances, it is appropriate to fuel the fire for the second war of independence  started by Jaiprakash Narain.The war is to make Indians free.
Dr N C Jain
13-6-11
 
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 01:30:10 +0530
Subject: [HumJanenge] 3 POSITIVE points which Baba, Anna and IAC will never ask for
From: sroy.mb@gmail.com
To: humjanenge@googlegroups.com

Baba, SrSri, Anna, Swami-A, Swami-S, GuruV, GuruM ....

3 small POSITIVE steps (followed in many progressive countries) is all it takes to generate the momentum to reduce corruption to the point where it will cease to affect the ordinary citizens (ie those who pay bribes for daily services, school admissions, building sanctions etc), reduce inflation, and put the fear of God into dishonest public servants.

Why have all these Babas and Swamis not agitated for these POSITIVE steps while instead only demanding NEGATIVE laws which will turn India into a POLICE STATE controlled by fascist forces ?

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