Tuesday, April 2, 2013

Re: [IAC#RG] Shanti Bhushan in Sanjay Dutt's Defence !

The solution is to make this a real democratic socialist secular republic. Today these are just words in the Preamble of our Constitution has nothing to do with reality on the ground. All religion based, gender based laws should be dumped. For example what should minority rights is a secular country? Nothing more than to follow their religion without calling other religionists names or seeking special privileges. May I ask why should minorities be given special privileges even in setting up educational institutions? Of course if it is to impart religious education let them go ahead and do what they want by finidng resources for themselves and not depending on tax payers money to pay the teachers, create infrastructure etc. In Kerala there was a hue and cry when the govt decided that to get minority status (and the accompanying privileges, of course!) for their educational institutions 60 percent of the students must be from that minority community! Such is the farce that is being perpetrated day in and day out in this secular country! So with gender issues. When teh courts are there to go into the specifics of particular cases why should the laws be gender biased? The other day I read a woman advocate saying that there should be facilities for women to sit, toilets for them to use and drinking water facilities for women attending court cases. Can you tell me one rason why men attending court cases do not need these basic facilities? Yes, one can go on writing in this vein till cows come home but I hope the point has been driven home.

regards n bw

ravi


On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 9:41 AM, vasant sardesai <vasant_sardesai@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
Then what is your solution? Only the Hindus should forget the past and co-operate even though the other part is not ready to forget its past and is neither ready to co-operate.
 
V. S. Sardesai

--- On Mon, 1/4/13, devinder.thakur@btopenworld.com <devinder.thakur@btopenworld.com> wrote:

From: devinder.thakur@btopenworld.com <devinder.thakur@btopenworld.com>
Subject: Re: [IAC#RG] Shanti Bhushan in Sanjay Dutt's Defence !
To: "Vinod Kumar" <kv08535@yahoo.com>, "sanjeev kulkarni" <jeevkulkarni@yahoo.com>, "vasant sardesai" <vasant_sardesai@yahoo.co.in>, "indiaresists@lists.riseup.net" <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net>, "shadikatyalsearch" <shadikatyal@yahoo.com>, "SatbirSingh" <ssbedi1945@yahoo.com>
Cc: "fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com" <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, 1 April, 2013, 12:06 AM

These are the symptoms of a wounded civilisations which suffers from an  eternal state of victom-hood.  If we can not forget about the excesses of history then there are other communities living besides us who have ruled us and they also can not forget.their glorious past whether we like it or not.  So that is the end of a forward looking nation in the year 2050 or even beyond.
 
Japan took the weight of two nuclear bombs on its chest. If Japan had wanted to put right the historic wrong done to it, before it could capture the world Motor Cycle market, then the electornic market and thereafter the Automobile markets of the world.  it would have remained a war torn, heart broken third world island nation. The same should apply to Germany
 
We are the victims of our illiberal thinking. What we are suffering from is the right wing ideology and we use it for gaining political power and to make it more appealing we wrap it in an wrapper of historic victimhood. and it sells. and not the niggly memories of the past. We shall continue to remain a half starved or a fat and ugly, flabby muscled nation constantly feuding and settling scores and the idea of becoming a forward looking, progressive and prosperous nation will remain a dream. Devinder 
 

From: Vinod Kumar <kv08535@yahoo.com>
To: sanjeev kulkarni <jeevkulkarni@yahoo.com>; vasant sardesai <vasant_sardesai@yahoo.co.in>; "indiaresists@lists.riseup.net" <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net>; shadikatyalsearch <shadikatyal@yahoo.com>; SatbirSingh <ssbedi1945@yahoo.com>; "devinder.thakur@btopenworld.com" <devinder.thakur@btopenworld.com>
Cc: "fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com" <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 31 March 2013, 17:48
Subject: Re: [IAC#RG] Shanti Bhushan in Sanjay Dutt's Defence !
Sanjeevji, Your mail before this mail was very meaningful. It has become common to look at an incident in isolation. Thus Babri masjid demolition is looked at in complete isolation as if yesterday did not exist. Whether we like it or not we are human beings and India suddenly did not drop on the earth  from outer space on the morning of 15th August 1947. If we have to forget the past entirely then there should be no book left before the said date, no living being born before that as they are likely to retain old memories unless we find a way to wipe off everyone's brains clean of all memories. Under that scenario there would be no Vijayadashmi celebrations. No Muharram, no reading of Vedas, No Koran, no books published before that date or any mention of anything that happened before that date. No article that was made before that date that might remind us of the past. Can we really start from a clean slate? The old slate is with us --we cannot get rid of it. You are right Babri masjid did not happen out of nowhere; similarly it was not just the burning, in the most inhumane manner, of 58 Hindu pilgrims that caused the ensuing Gujarat riots in the land of Gandhi -- in Gujarat of all places.  It was the result of pent up frustartions built over years, decades -- and If  I may be realistic, over the centuries. Issues that we have failed to address. And the current climate is not helping  or addressing the issues either. What has happened after the Gujarat riots is sheer hypocrisy. Civilizations have long memories .. brushing the dust under the carpet is not the solution -- the fundamental issues have to be tackled brutally and honestly. That is the only way. Are we ready for that? These are my thoughts. Vinod K


From: sanjeev kulkarni <jeevkulkarni@yahoo.com>
To: vasant sardesai <vasant_sardesai@yahoo.co.in>; "indiaresists@lists.riseup.net" <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net>; shadikatyalsearch <shadikatyal@yahoo.com>; VinodKumar <kv08535@yahoo.com>; SatbirSingh <ssbedi1945@yahoo.com>; devinder.thakur@btopenworld.com
Cc: "fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com" <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: [IAC#RG] Shanti Bhushan in Sanjay Dutt's Defence !
I am willing to endorse a forward looking nation provided every one follows this principle.
How about a cut off date as 2010 ?  It wont have memory of Sikh slaughter of 1984,
no Babri Masjid and no Gujarat riots !  Since 1947 there have been much ill will I think
this date of 2005 should be acceptable to all and we will become forward looking society. 
Thus there won't be chance for any one to play mischief on the basis of historical events.
 

From: devinder.thakur@btopenworld.com <devinder.thakur@btopenworld.com>
Subject: Re: [IAC#RG] Shanti Bhushan in Sanjay Dutt's Defence !
Date: Sunday, 31 March, 2013, 9:08 PM

Going by Sanjev Ji's logic, we as a free and forward looking nation(?) should have made 15 August 1947 as the starting point of our new nationhood. and settled scores on the basis of what happen after that date. 'Khalistan' movement was one such example. Even the Gujarat riots of 2002  can also be justified as a part of the post 1947 mishap. However, I dare say that the demolition of a historic structure can never become a part of the post 1947 mishaps but a well thought out political mischief and as a proof of the pudding, it did bring a political party to power. Ironically, the Ram Mandir is only remembered nearer the elections. 
 
If we continue to look back in history and try to first remove the wrinkles of the past as some ideologues would wish us to do, we might as well forget about becoming a forward looking, science oriented, logical and progressive nation.  Devinder 
From: vasant sardesai <vasant_sardesai@yahoo.co.in>
To: "indiaresists@lists.riseup.net" <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net>; Subject: Re: [IAC#RG] Shanti Bhushan in Sanjay Dutt's Defence !
You are right;there are so many such commissions appointed like Justice Bannerjee Commission appointed by the then Railways Minister Lallu Prasad in respect of Goddhra incident of 2002 for political reasons rather than for finding out the truth.
As regards Balashaeb Thackrey'srole inMumbai riots of 1992 - 93, it is the common knowledge that because of Shiv Sena that Mumbai especially Hindus were saved from Muslims when police refused to help them. At that time I was in Mumbai and I have witnessed it personally.
 
V.S.Sardesai
--- On Sun, 31/3/13, sanjeev kulkarni <jeevkulkarni@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: sanjeev kulkarni <jeevkulkarni@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [IAC#RG] Shanti Bhushan in Sanjay Dutt's Defence !
Date: Sunday, 31 March, 2013, 5:19 PM

If any one is really interested in the truth let them start at the beginning.  If you are
talking about Bombay riots and citing destruction of Babri masjid as the cause,
better start with the history and find out why Babri masjid stood at that particular
place in the first place.  and how many times Hindus had tried to win back their holy
place.  If muslims had recognised the historical wrong, and handed over the Babri
masjid place to their rightful owners, the whole gory chapter could have been avoided.
Shreekrishna report will not have this kind of depth and analysis any way because it
was a political appointment to tarnish Hindus for vote bank politics.  It seems people
start their love for truth half way through and not right from the beginning of the event.
Like Sikhs will always talk how they were victims of 1984 riots but will never mention
what Sikhs were doing ten years before that under the able guidance of Bhindranwale.
Be honest for a change !
 
Sanjeev --- On Sun, 31/3/13, vasant sardesai <vasant_sardesai@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

From: vasant sardesai <vasant_sardesai@yahoo.co.in>
Subject: Re: [IAC#RG] Shanti Bhushan in Sanjay Dutt's Defence !
Date: Sunday, 31 March, 2013, 2:09 PM

It is beyond the understandinG of sycophants to know why and  how Balasaheb Thackrey got such an honour or why people are after Narendra Modi for becoming PM; theyshould better be happy in praising their masters.
 
V.S.Sardesai

From: devinder.thakur@btopenworld.com <devinder.thakur@btopenworld.com>
Subject: Re: [IAC#RG] Shanti Bhushan in Sanjay Dutt's Defence !
Cc: "fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com" <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, 31 March, 2013, 12:25 AM

Some people have the habit of never admitting reality. Did anybody ever agree or even confess what lead to the horrible Bombay riots.and the blasts that shattered Mumbai in end 1992 early 1993, following the destruction of the Babri Masjid.on December 6 1992.which killed 253 people and injured 713 more. not to talk about property worth thousands of crores destroyed.  The Srikrishna Commission report clearly indicted Shive Sena supremo Bal Thackrey and the then chief minister Manohar Joshi and Sena MP Madhukar Sarpotdar along with several other politicians and a long list of policemen for the horrific riots that killed 900 and injured 2036 more. The report says that "there was no doubt that the Shiv Sena and  Shiv Sainiks organised attacks on Muslims and their properties"And that Thakeray was the veteran general commanding his loyal Shiv Sainiks in this orchestrated sectarian violence.
                                                                
It has been 15 years since the Srikrishna Commission report , none of its suggestions have been implemented nor even one of those indicted were punished. The police and politicians had been rewarded and Bal Thackrey the prime architect of the orgy of violence, remained a respected leader and got a state funeral when he died. Congressmen who lead the 1984 Sikh riots in Delhi  have also not been punished. Narindra Modi who was once believed to be the architect of 2002 massacre of Muslims in Gujarat is readying to become Prime minister. Do we see any double standards anywhere.
 
Unequal justice delivery hurts, angers and alienates communities. A country which takes pride in its secular credentials and rule of law and impartial judiciary is worried that if foolish Sanjay Dutt is granted pardon, it will mean double standards in our justice delivery.and a collapse of our social order.  Devinder Thakur
From: Dr. Madhukar Ambekar <drmnambekar@yahoo.co.uk>
To: devinder.thakur@btopenworld.com
Cc: indiaresists@lists.riseup.net; fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 30 March 2013, 10:45
Subject: Re: [IAC#RG] Shanti Bhushan in Sanjay Dutt's Defence !
Some people have habit not to speak on the "facts" when provided and find some thing which is against Congress party culture. Basic fact is no Election for Congress Party President for the last nearly 15 years. It is still a "Democratic and Secular Decision". 

In UK people who are the target of "Racism" say Racism is "Overt and Covert" amongst the British. Could that be applied to Muslims in India? It is any one's own intellect and biases. 
Mohammed Ali Jinnah and Ali Brothers both were on the extreme ends of ideology initially BUT what happened at the end is evident in History. One does not need to be genius to understand it. Dr. Ambekar
On 29 Mar 2013, at 18:45, devinder.thakur@btopenworld.com wrote:
Ehsan Jaffry was not a terrorist or a Muslim Gooda but a respectable legislator.He was a permanent target because he belonged to the Congress party and the Congress partly is ideological hated and so are all the Congress leaders For reference purposes, read the list of enemies in the website of the Hindu-unity.org.
From: Sarbajit Roy <sroy.mb@gmail.com>
To: indiaresists <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net>
Sent: Friday, 29 March 2013, 17:30
Subject: Re: [IAC#RG] Shanti Bhushan in Sanjay Dutt's Defence !
Dear Mr Kumar You fail to mention the following:- In 1969 rioting Hindu mobs burnt down his Ehsan Jafri's house. he possessed weapons since that time. These wapons saved his life on several occasions. In 2002 after the Godhra incident, once again a mob attacked his house, this time a very large mob armed with knivces, swords, guns and gas cylinders to be used as improvised bombs blasted their way into his house.  4 hours of calling everywhere for help did not bring relief. The mob had full police support and computer printouts of voters lists. Recorded calls to the DGP of Police brought no assistance. In such cases of a State Sponsored elimination pogrom,  the minorities deserve to be armed with automatic weapons. If Jafri had these he would be alive today.Sarbajit
On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 8:50 PM, S kumar <kumar_8134@yahoo.com> wrote:
Possessing or using a firearm in riotous situations is dangerous and may cause death to the user of the weapon. Such situations call for calmness and tactfulness in dealing with the agitated mobs.
 
In 2002, Ehsan Jafri, a former MP from Gujarat faced a totally unknown riotous mob agitated over burning of 59 Hindu pilgrims in the Sleeper Coach a Godhra. Normally a peace loving man, Jaffri came out of the house and when the mob was shouting, instead of pacifying them, he took out his weapon and fired at the mob. The already agitated mob got into a frenzy an lynched him to death.
 
Unless absolutely necessary to protect oneself in situations of performing one's duties or extensive travels at untimely hours outside the populated areas, one should not carry the dangerous weapons and face situations where that might be used.
From: Sarbajit Roy <sroy.mb@gmail.com>
To: indiaresists@lists.riseup.net
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 5:57 PM
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