All credit for Joya Royji for accepting some responsibility for the misdeeds of his ancestors. We should all learn from him. But I would suggest to him to put that behind him and not continue to be overburdened with a sense of guilt. Let us move on . In the medieval ages, as he has brought out, Brahmins exploited lower castes and tribals. British exploited Indians. Muslims massacred Hindus. But we are now in the 21st century. All governments , across all parties, after our independence have formed policies and laws to help the Dalits , scheduled castes and tribals to come into the mainstream of life. To such an extent that many communities are trying to get themselves a scheduled caste status, as there is a perceived advantage now in being classified as scheduled caste.We have had some success in rehabilitating them. No doubt a lot more remains to be done.
Let us emphasise on what needs to be done rather than to wallow endlessly in a sense of guilt.
Jai Hind
Anand Gangoli
On Friday, March 20, 2020, Manohar Sharma <manohar.sharma@hotmail.com> wrote:
Starting a reply with 'comments like this need no response' and then go on to reply in the form clarifying misrepresentation intrinsically has arrogance built in it.Be that as it may.
If you think this govt's mindset is fascist etc you are welcome to your opinions.
Your statement 'if the CAA were relevant to infiltration anywhere outside the northeastern states,why are many legislative assemblies are refusing to accept in its present form'."Are they then composed of anti-national, traitors-gaddars,who should be summarily shot ?
First of all, CAA has nothing to do with infiltration,it's about giving citizenship to religiously persecuted from Pakistan, Bangladesh n Afganistan.
All legislative assemblies who have passed resolutions aganist the CAA are totally unconstitutional as the citizenship n it's variations comes under 'union list' of Indian constitution.I presume you are aware of union ,state n concurrent lists.
Subsequent part of your statement is just your own imagination n deserves no comment.
Your information or knowledge from personal friends n relatives is not privy to me.I claim no such access of any kind whatsoever as for as Delhi riots are concerned.Thats why I said n maintain, that let the enquiry report be out to know the truth.Your emphasis that these sources are 'non muslims' is really very touching.
Just because it's the girls that are defending boys(co students) doesn't say law shouldn't be implemented.Before you jump to any conclusion,let it be decided after the enquiry.Because the 'sheroes' of Burkha Dutt were supporting the call of Sharjeel Imam who lectured the assembled people as to how to separate Assam by blocking the chicken neck like Shaheen Bagh.
Your statement 'is protest against bad policies is anti national'.The answer is clear No.But protests don't mean burning of buses,trains, railway stations (WB) or destruction of public property.Their protests have absolutely no authority to curb others rights to live a normal life like blocking of a road etc.
When you bring in the history of 700 year old n what actions or atrocities your ancestors did, it obviously doesn't mean that you agree n follow the same principles.Infact it's quite clear as you are critiquing them so you disagree with them.Well for the record let me state unequivocally that I abhor those acts myself too.
I can't talk of 700 years but in the year 1963 when I was to join IAF training as a cadet,my mother asked my father to conduct the ritual of तुला दान where grains n all kinds of metals equal to my weight are given as charity.It was supervised by my grandfather a प्रकांड पंडित.Please know that the all the grains n metals were given to family barber n sweeper who use to collect our night soil.I was told to wash their feet, offer them food n make equal halves n give it to them seek blessings by touching their feet.They in turn blessed me with long n prosperous life.
Your critique of your own community is welcome.But creation of narratives based on 700 year old history n the 19 century reports vindicates my statement of flogging a dead horse n worse they generate hatred against majority community.
Things are changing like I explained in my previous write up.Old history has good n bad points both.Your previous write up clearly brings out Hindu vs Muslims n how they are being victimized.Let me categorically say that my experience is just the opposite.More on that some other time.
Manohar Sharma
Comments like this need no response but I need to clarify two things that misrepresent what I said. This happens when intellectual adversaries read and see completely different sets of data, be they news clips, social media videos, government pronouncements on recent events and first hand accounts of those events, or when they see the same data sets and get a completely different picture of what is really happening, according to.their habitual biases.
My bias is to listen to the accounts of the victims of mob riots not of the perpetrators or instigators such as those who want their party followers or mobs to shoot people who object to the NRC-CAA. My idea of India is certainly not that of the fascist, anti-minority, anti-dissent, anti-democratic mindset of the present leadership. If the CAA were relevant to concerns about infiltration anywhere outside the North-Eastern states, why are many legislative assemblies in India refusing to accept it in its present form? Telengana, Tamil Nadu, West Bengal, Kerala have all objected to these legislations. Are they all then composed of anti-national 'traitors' - 'gaddars' who should be summarily shot ?
My information on the injured girl students of Jamia who suffered serious injuries below their waists down to their private parts from police blows and prods comes from friends and relatives (non-Muslim, FYI) who are medicos/doctorates) who have seen their condition and heard their accounts of what happened. FYI, Jamia had many Hindu students who protested against the CAA alongside the Muslim students. But I also watched - as you must have - that video of the two Jamia girls preventing police from attacking their male co-student. You can see how police, or hired goons in police uniforms conveniently supplied to them, use their lathis as bayonets to poke flesh and pierce internal organs. In Jamia they blinded a.student. In JNU police beat up a blind student. Several Jamia girls needed surgery after the police attack. You would have seen the same videos and interviews. Is protest against bad government policies 'anti-national'? When students become docile like sheep a country is doomed.
Secondly, I can't 'spread hate' against Brahmins who were my forebears. But I can critique the actions and mind-sets of some of them. 700 years ago when my Brahmin ancestors moved into the part of Bengal called Sylhet, now in Bangladesh, my father's birthplace, they systematically dispossesed the original adivasis - Khasis, Garos and Jaintias - driving these tribes into the hilly regions to the North, now known as Meghalaya. Brahmin and Rajput families took over all the rich cultivable lands of North Bengal. I have seen the same thing happen in Bihar and Jharkhand. Except that since upper castes have much greater mobility, access to modern education and economic opportunities, the educated among them lose their dependence on revenues from ancestral lands. Their dominance in rural areas has since been taken over by the OBCs in these two states except where Bhumihars - 'those who grab land' - still hold sway. Either way, it is the original settlers, the adivasis and many of those that we call SCs, who have been dispossesed, emisserated, trampled upon, in Eastern India. From my observations in the field including in my paternal ancestral village in Sylhet, my maternal ancestral area of Chandernagore, and my reading of 19th century ethnographies, histories, colonial despatches and District Gazetteers of these places I can see what people of 'my kind' have done to the original ST-SC populations who first occupied these lands. Isn't it laughable to contend that my criticism of my own community constitutes an attempt to 'spread hatred' against a particular community ?!
Joya Roy
On Thu, 19 Mar 2020, 18:05 Manohar Sharma, <manohar.sharma@hotmail.com> wrote:
There are patently wrong statements made in Jaya Roy's write up
1.The killings in Delhi riots have had casualties on majority n minority communities equally (quote Rajdeep Sardesai)
2.The Jamia case still is under enquiry n full details are not out as yet.If they are ,then please put them up for public view. There are plenty of videos which indicate that they were not studemts at all but stone pelters brought in for the specified purpose.Studying in libarary with faces covered is rather odd,at least to me.But like I said,let the enquiry decide.
3.The CAA doesn't take anybody's citizenship.Mr Harish Salve has categorically negated all such rumours,agendas n lies on NDTV .The CAA is in SC n whether it's constitutional or not,they will take the call.Harish Salve thinks that CAA is constitutional n is the need to fullfill the promises made by our founding fathers
4.There is a narrative which is trying to portray Brahmins, upper castes etc in a planned manner which is replica of what Rajiv Malhotra decribes in his book 'Breaking India'.Looking at the manner these words are mentioned,there is clear motive of creating hatred against the majority community.This kind of flogging the dead horse has been going on in a systematic manner with a clear agenda since long. THESE PEOPLE HAVE NEVER FORWARDED,OFFERED ANY KIND OF SOLUTIONS EXCEPT GENERATING HATRED WHICH IS ENTIRELY RESPONSIBLE FOR NOT JUST CREATING FAULT LINES WHERE THEY DONT EXIST BUT EXPLOITING ALL THOSE WHERE SUCH FAULT LINES EXIST . Examples of foreign countries don't offer solutions.The Indian ground realities need to be checked n reported.I had earlier reported of lack of any discrimination during भंडारा in temples complexes in the village where I stay.I would like to add that a sample of ten villages who are involved in these three temples,must be considered a sure shot forward movement and not just wishy washy illusion.
Manohar Sharma
________________________________
From: indiaresists-request@lists.riseup.net <indiaresists-request@lists.riseup.net > on behalf of Prodipto Roy <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net>
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2020 2:12:32 PM
To: Gopalkrishnan iyer <iyer_ga@yahoo.com>; indiaresists <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net>
Subject: Re: [IAC#RG] Brahminical views on minorities, population, current events, and governance
It's typical of the selective perceptions of upper castes that they ignore both the latest official data analyses on population growth and the hate crimes and violence including rape, lynchings and murder of minority community members such as happened recently in North East Delhi with full cooperation of the police (not under Delhi govt.but under the central Home Ministry).
They won't deign to see news videos or read about police attacking students in Jamia and JNU using their lathis not as sticks to beat people with but as lethal bayonets. Thus they won't care to learn about how most of the girl students injured in the second round of police violence against Jamia protesters were hospitalised for grevious injuries to their stomachs, kidneys and private parts, i.e., all below the belt, as it were. Do these commentators think it's okay to give them mob justice because they are minority students (most of them were Hindu, btw) or the 'anarya,' to whom upper caste rules of conduct towards adversaries don't apply ??
Do these good Brahmins know that although it is Muslims who are targeted for disenfranchisement by the CAA, millions of poor, illiterate, Hindus too will be cast into gulags called detention camps in the Northeast? Why do they overlook the fact that a majority of sane thinking Indians - those who have heads and sound cognitive faculties, that is - also oppose the NRC and CAA as being unconstitutional, a criminal conspiracy to disenfranchise millions of helpless citizens and non-Hindus. Even Hindus from upper class families will be unable to produce documents relating to place of origin of their parents and grandparents! Is this the India you want? Is this the government you want to support, that works against the Indian constitution and colludes with rabid mobs or paramilitaries who kill Muslims, adivasis, dalits, and dissenters with impunity?
If the upper castes, particularly Brahmins, want to return to their erstwhile role as educators, intermediaries between humans and gods (read 'governments' in the present context), scientists, philosophers and policy makers, they must first study India's hoary traditions of logic, debate, valid cognition and Nyaya. After this process of re-education, they will be able to critique their own false assumptions, blind spots, selective perception of what the government controlled media tell them and they may even appreciate what dissenters of all hues have been saying against the RSS-Golwalkar-VHP- Bajrangi Dali-BJP view of what India is.
Joya Roy
On Tue, 17 Mar 2020, 10:44 Gopalkrishnan iyer, <iyer_ga@yahoo.com<mailto:iyer_ga@yahoo.com >> wrote:
All said and done our resources are getting depleted and it is necessary to contain numbers. Besides civilization continue to evolve and reforming ourselves is a must.
Pursuant to "independence" the majority population in India rose by around 3 times whereas the "minority" rose by about 8-9 times, it appears!
We have learnt many things over these periods and the current disturbed situations that minority want to dictate to the country how it should function.
The violence that errupted recently and the hate speech that reverberated in the recent times further reinforces that one religion wants to rule the world, and particularly India. If the population grow in an unbalanced rate the minority will become majority sooner than later and would be at the helm of affairs.
Assuming that democracy would continue, despite, a religion which exhort kill or convert as the directions of its lord, the theme and purpose exemplified beyond the slightest doubt and looking at the easy way of passing laws through ordinances it would not be out place to visualize that day when we all or our 2nd generation see India pervading and dominating with today's minority!!
These are my personal views and appologise if I have strayed away from topic!
On Monday, 16 March, 2020, 09:31:44 pm IST, Anand Gangoli <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net<mailto:indiaresists@lists.ris eup.net >> wrote:
What is important at this stage is to decide whether or not India
should pass a law prohibiting Polygamy. It is immaterial whether some
king in Hindu Mythology had 3 wives or 15, or whether some saint or
prophet more than a thousand years ago had 4 wives or 13. Nor is it
material whether our PM worships a red idol or a black stone. What is
important is that he is the elected Prime Minister and has every right
to make laws that are beneficial to India. I believe that polygamy is
bad, and banning it would be beneficial to India. For many reasons.
Population growth is one, the other is from the perspective of human
rights-polygamy goes against the concept of equality between men and
women. I am sure there would be others. Therefore I am very clear that
our PM must make a laws abolishing Polygamy.
Just to set the records straight with respect Joya Royji's email of
15th. The campaign for abolishing sati was led by Raja Ram Mohan Roy-
no one can take any credit away from him for uprooting this heinous
practice. I should have mentioned his name in my earlier e mail.
Apologies. But there was a lot of opposition to his proposal from the
Hindu community. In spite of the opposition, Lord William Bentinck
passed a law abolishing Sati in 1829. This is one few good things
that the British did for us.
Coming to the subject of untouchability. Joya Royji has vastly
exaggerated the problem of untouchability as it exists in the present
time. Central and state governments do not discriminate when it comes
to giving employment in government services. In fact they are giving
increased opportunity for employment. There are punitive laws that
discourage the practice of untouchability. All air travellers know
that the cabin crew that serves refreshment on flight can be from any
caste. The public sector Airline give preference to SC/ST candidate. I
have never seen any passenger asking the cabin crew for his/her caste.
If anyone were to do so, I am sure the Captain would be well within
his/her rights to offload him. The same goes for any hotel/restaurant
. Does anyone ask the waiter or a barber in a saloon what his caste
is? Does anyone dare ask someone sporting a moustache or driving a car
( not easy to find anyone sitting on a horse these days !) what his
caste is? The credit for this improvement should go to all governments
who have held power since our independence.
I hope most of us agree. Polygamy is bad and must go.
Jai Hind
Anand Gangoli
On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 3:09 PM Anand Gangoli <anandgangoli22@gmail.com<mailto:anandgangoli22@gmail.com>> wrote:
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