Wednesday, August 28, 2013

Re: [IAC#RG] Why is entire ESM community calling you names?

Dear Ashok Coomar,

Thank you for writing in, and I must salute your tone of language, far different from the tone used by Shri Pannu.

Now, on contents and some facts:-

1) My mother takes a pension from the Indian Army thanks to my late father, my late maternal grandmother took an award for all 4 sons in the Armed Forces (though only 3 continued, the first had to take a civil job to bring up the zero restart family after '47)

2) I have a list as long as your arm of family members from the close circle of relatives as well as close friends who have been in the Armed Forces and are in the Armed Forces and some have also made the Supreme Sacrifice and so get slightly outraged when people choose to question my patriotism.

3) Not having been in the Armed Forces myself but from an institution which produced the earliest Chiefs of Staff of the Indian Navt as well as other Star Officers for the Indian Army, so connections of not just the Indian Navy, my own training went through the full drill on Armed Forces pattern, and more, including swearing loyalty to flag and country.

My single point question here to you is this - if after retiring, a person from the Indian Armed Forces or Civilian Government services voluntarily exits from Indian citizenship and swears loyalty as well as fealty to another country, then what right does he have to the benefits of the Army Act or similar, whether ex Armed Forces or Civilian?

Would we justify the benefits if, hypothetical situation, the Supreme Commander in Chief, the President of India did something like this?

Please do not try to churn the issue up into other unrelated issues of loyalty, patriotism, and need of the Nation and the hour. I am not a fool to not know the importance of a strong Armed Forces. If it is your contention that strong Armed Forces can not exist without booze, then I have nothing more to say. However, if that was not your contention, then:-

4) As far as duty free booze is concerned, tots of rum could have been justified in gunpowder days, which is what we also were taught, but in this day and age, when Armed Forces personnel are expected to be tech savvy as well as in charge of equipment costing billions? On an ordinary cargo tanker carrying crude oil, a clear window of no booze for 15 days prior is now SOP. A railway engine driver, merchant navy sailor, civil aircraft pilot, truck operator, lab technician, surgeon, teacher, everybody else is supposed to be cold sober nil alcohol. But our Armed Forces expect to get cheap booze? 

5) Given half a chance, the dispensation towards no booze needs to be instilled into people joining the Armed Forces from the date of induction, just as it is done in other professions requiring some amount of responsibility. Maybe it is a good idea to put this in the curriculum of the training establishments for the Armed Forces, as is done with responsible Armed Forces, increasingly, worldwide?

Deflecting any rational arguments into vague retorts about being anti-National would make anybody else an easy target, but not me, Coomar, or Pannu - I got far too many family members and friends who have died in the Service of the Nation for you and your ilk to get patronising, condescending and supercilious with me. In addition, I have pursued one too many compensation claim for families of such people where people in service have put obstacles, to not know the truth.

Have a nice day, try and remain sober, and set a good example to the youngsters joining the forces. Calling me names just makes me more keen to do a follow-up article.

Warm regards/Veeresh Malik



 


On 28 August 2013 19:43, Maj Gen Ashok Coomar <coomar.ashok@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Mr Malik,
 
It is indeed unfortunate that we have such ignorant citizens in this country who will neither see nor listen to reason. They continue their lament without pausing to analyse whether one should excise the head because of a headache.
There is no alternative to an army to defend the nation. You may be right that there are aberrations but the nation has no option but to take the delinquents to ask rather than spite the entire armed forces as you seem to suggest. 
In national interest it is imperative that our countrymen are careful not to run down the entire institution of the armed forces lest it may compels them to follow the lead given by others - forget about the responsibility you are charged with, just line your nest! 
Perhaps you can imagine the consequences if that happens.
If you do then please refrain from plying your lonely furrow.
I pray to God to bestow some patriotic wisdom on you,
 
Yours sincerely,
 
Ashok Coomar      
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 8/27/2013 11:55:40 PM
Subject: Re: [IAC#RG] PIL dismissed. subsidised alcohol to Defence remains.
 
Dear Air Commodre (Retd) T Pannu and others in this list.

Ignoring the silly language used by Air Comm Pannu on calling me a "traitor", for which I could easily choose to file a case under the IT Act if I wanted to, which said language does no justice to the rank he claims to hold, let me place a few simple facts on record:-

1) The Army Act and its specific requirement of "citizen of India" (exception - Nepali) is paramount. It supercedes any GOI letter. Aliens, foreigners (which is what people voluntarily become when they renounce Indian citizenship to pledge loyalty and fealty to another country) are not covered under the said Act and its applications to other Services. A similar situation exists with civilian pensioners too. Please wait for the announcement on pensions wrt aliens/foreigners, which to some extent is already in place in practice for ECHS/MI Room benefits. Rank or otherwise, what right do foreigners and aliens even if they were in the Indian Armed Forces at one time, have to enter restricted areas which includes Armed Forces Hospitals, Installations, Offices, Air Force Stations, Naval Bases, restricted Army Cantonment areas and similar in free India? Is the Commander-in-Chief of the Indian Armed Forces, the President, also to be permitted to continue with a pension if she/he chooses to renounce Indian citizenship? 

2) On alcohol, why on earth should retired Armed Forces pensioners expect lifelong duty-free booze, are Indian tax-payers expected to then pay for their subsequent treatment also - if one sees the quantities being lifted? If we are talking about tradition, then providing opium and ganja was also a tradition in some armies, should that also be continued.

3) Finally, only a frustrated man says "shut up", and can understand where the good Air Comm is coming from. Get Well Soon.

brgds/Veeresh Malik




 
 


On 27 August 2013 10:28, Shaila S <shaila62@gmail.com> wrote:
I AM WITH MY BRAVE WARRIORS--ANYTHING FOR THEM


On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 7:49 AM, T Pannu <tpannu@gmail.com> wrote:
   Before I comment, I wish to inform that I am not an NRI but have extensively travelled to US, Canada, UK & Russia & have gained a fairly good knowledge of the matters military as applicable to them. These countries rightly understand the importance/contribution of their armed forces & swear by them. That is why they are the leading Nations. On 27 May, it was a matter of great pleasure to witness the Memorial Day Parade in one of the towns (Hoboken in New Jersey) with huge number of civil population thoroughly involved in the commemoration of the soldiers who sacrificed their lives for the Nation. This country truly deserves to be on top of the world because it realises that a nation is doomed if it does not accord a place of pride to its soldiers. In contrast, ours is an ungrateful nation.
  Coming further, Mr Vaghela & Mr Veeresh Malik seem to have felt uneasy/irritated on the grant of privileges/ concessions (which are peanuts) extended to military personnel. While Mr Vaghela can be excused due to his ignorance of the working conditions of the armed forces, Mr Malik does not deserve to be treated softly mainly because he says that he & his earlier generations had donned the uniform. It is clear that his earlier generations enjoyed the uniform, otherwise, he wouldnt have opted for the ame. It is also possible that his tenure was too short or the uniform he donned was not that of armed forces. Wonder why these two gentlemen close their eyes to the denial of fundamental rights to the soldier, his earlier retirement from the service, large number of widows of jawans without proper rehab, unduly harsh working conditions, bringing down pension from about 75 % (prior to 1970s due to early retirement) to 50% and in contrast increasing civilian pension from 33% to 50% and finally the downgradation in status & emasculation of the defence forces. They should file PILs to restore the honour & respect which the armed forces have badly suffered.
Mr Vasant Sardesai's suggestion of compulsory military service is quite apt. People should realise that those who join the forces, fully know that they may die young/premature; inspite of this they still do. Doesnt it prove that they have something in them which others lack. Let us not treat their lives so cheap; they definitely sacrifice their today for others' tomorrow.
   Lastly, let me educate Mr Veeresh Malik; GOI letter # No PC5169/ATP/PC/909/A/04/D(Pen/Sers), Government of India; Ministry of Defence, New Delhi 110011, Dated 06-10-2004, authorises  the grant of pension to ex servicemen pensioners on change of nationality & they pay taxes on that. Incidently, this privilege was already available to civil pensioners, which formed the basis of extending the same to military personnel. Hence it shows no undue favour. NRIs/foreign citizens have no pleasure in giving up Indian citizenship; the irony is that the Indian Govt so compels them to do so. US, UK & Canada do not object to dual citizenship from other countries.  US, in fact, welcomes the talent from all over the world and thats why the talent outshines there because of encouragement/healthy work environment. No US citizen would thus like to relinquish the citizenship of that country. NRIs/foreign citizens love to declare their status (while in India) because otherwise they will be compelled to report to nearest police stn every 6 months about their whereabouts. By not granting dual citizenship, India, in fact, is the loser. Looks like Mr Veeresh Malik either doesnt know all this or he is a traitor/planted agent of MOD, which is fighting non-stop battle to destroy the armed forces. He is welcome to debate the issue with me, if he so desires or otherwise keep his mouth shut.
   Lastly, I would appeal to others, too, not to waste their energies on these petty issues. There are much bigger battles to be fought like scam after scam, deep rooted corruption, downturn of economy, abrupt fall of rupee, gangrapes of our sisters/daughters, moral degradation of politicians, non-accountability of bureaucracy, failure of the Govt on all fronts, etc etc (list is not exhaustive).
   Air Commodore (Retd) T  Pannu
   Presently in New York


On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 4:34 PM, samuel devadas <samkalp2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
send Vaghela Bhai to a no war zone where temperatures are -52 degree C like Dras and Siachen ( where our troops are braving it and every appendage freezes to non recognizable sizes) just for sightseeing leave alone war & bullets and let us see his contribution and support to such PIL.
Col Sam

From: ss sohi <sadhusohi@gmail.com>
To: "indiaresists@lists.riseup.net" <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net>
Sent: Thursday, 22 August 2013 7:19 PM

Subject: Re: [IAC#RG] PIL dismissed. subsidised alcohol to Defence remains.

Waghela Jee,
we have earned some concessions after facing Wars bullets with patriotism. What is your contributions ???
Rgds.
Col Sohi. 9815107744.


On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 8:54 AM, Babubhai Vaghela <vaghelabd@gmail.com> wrote:
I am sure GOI will look into to stop such Largess as the concern has
been brought into public domain though the justified PIL is Dismissed.

On 8/21/13, krishna kumar pande <pandekk@gmail.com> wrote:
> should also work out on the various freebes that the parties are giving at
> the cost of the tax payers money and then the currency takes a nose dive
>
> KKP
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 10:00 AM, M.N.Seshadri
> <manavasi.seshadri@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>  May I appeal to your esteemed  organization to request Mr. AmitabThakur
>> to file a PIL requesting the Supreme court to examine in detail the
>> present
>> perks, salary , and also the highly subsidized canteen items in our
>> Parliament.   The entire world will back him up . This is happening in
>> every democracy where they pass bills that suits the MPS almost with 100%
>> voting in favour without a single member dissenting. . All differences
>> between parties disappear dramatically when it comes to looking after
>> themselves . What is  the need for giving pension to the MPs. They
>> volunteered to become MPs. No  body forced them to work  for life !!!
>> ***
>> *
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *From:* indiaresists-request@lists.riseup.net [mailto:
>> indiaresists-request@lists.riseup.net] *On Behalf Of *Sarbajit Roy
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 20, 2013 10:11 PM
>> *To:* indiaresists
>> *Subject:* [IAC#RG] Misconceived PIL dismissed. subsidised alcohol to
>> Defence remains.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> For our fauji members****
>>
>> Please find below order of Allahabad High Court dt. today dismissing a
>> Writ Petiton filed by Chairman / President of National RTI Forum Mr.
>> Amitabh Thakur IPS. ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> HIGH COURT OF JUDICATURE AT ALLAHABAD, LUCKNOW BENCH
>>
>> ?Chief Justice's Court
>>
>> Case :- MISC. BENCH No. - 7295 of 2013
>>
>> Petitioner :- Amitabh Thakur & Another [P.I.L.]
>> Respondent :- Union Of India Thr.Secy.Ministry Of Defence New Delhi &
>> Anr.
>> Counsel for Petitioner :- Amitabh Thakur (Inperson),Dr.Nutan Thakur
>> (Inperson
>> Counsel for Respondent :- A.S.G.
>>
>> Hon'ble Shiva Kirti Singh,Chief Justice
>> Hon'ble Devendra Kumar Upadhyaya,J. ****
>>
>>
>> Heard learned counsel for the petitioners and learned counsel for Union
>> of
>> India.
>> This writ petition has been filed as a PIL to seek directions from this
>> Court to the respondents to get a detailed study conducted regarding
>> privileges given to some services, mainly defence service and
>> para-military
>> service of supply of liquour on subsidized rates. ****
>>
>> Learned counsel for Union of India has raised an objection that the
>> petitioners are not experts in the field and they have not done any study
>> of the matter to come forward with any alternative suggestions backed by
>> results of scientific study. According to learned counsel for Union of
>> India, this Court cannot and should not entertain such public interest
>> litigations which are aimed at initiating a study for a fishing and
>> roving
>> enquiry without coming forward with concrete materials to help the Court
>> in
>> achieving public interest by preventing harm to vulnerable sections of
>> the
>> society or by ensuring that their rights are honoured by the State. ****
>>
>> In the facts of the case, we find substance in the submission of learned
>> counsel for Union of India that the privileges, which are subject matter
>> of
>> this petition, are service privileges for some of the defence services or
>> para-military services and they should not be subject matter of PIL. The
>> writ petition is, therefore, dismissed. ****
>>
>> Order Date :- 20.8.2013
>> AHA ****
>>
>> _****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Post: "indiaresists@lists.riseup.net"
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>> Quit: "https://lists.riseup.net/www/signoff/indiaresists"
>> Help: https://help.riseup.net/en/list-user
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>>
>


--
(Babubhai Vaghela)
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